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+--- Thread: Making the stairs in Blackmoor Dungeon line up? (/showthread.php?tid=302)
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Making the stairs in Blackmoor Dungeon line up? - Tavis - 02-22-2010
Has anyone done the project of figuring out how the staircases in Blackmoor Dungeon line up? I've scanned the maps in the First Fantasy Campaign and printed those in the ZG Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor, which I was sad to see are simply a re-draw of the FFC originals without a cross-section map or an explanation in the text of which staircases lead where.
My preliminary investigation of levels 1 and 2 suggest that there are some errors (some staircases should be listed as going both up and down), while some up staircases on level 2 don't exit at level 1, and some down staircases on level 1 going past level 2 to somewhere deeper.
If this is something that's already been worked out, I'd gladly put aside my tracing paper!
- Havard - 02-23-2010
Hey Tavis! Welcome to the Comeback Inn. What took you so long?
There's a discussion on that topic here, but I don't know how much that solved.
I would be interested in hearing what you and other people make of this though.
BTW: In the ZGG thread linked above, Sheridan links to a revised map for Dungeon Level 1. The link no longer works. Does anyone have the file?
Havard
- Tavis - 02-23-2010
Yeah, I found that thread but found it not very helpful. I think that making the d20 book faithful to the FFC was a bad decision because there are some errors in the FFC that seem like they were clearly introduced in the process of making those maps from Arneson's original notes. Going back to those notes, or reconciling some of the obvious discrepancies (e.g. changing the compass rose if a level has to be rotated in order to line up; correctly labeling which directions stairs go), would have made a more valuable product.
Here's what I know so far:
- Levels 1 and 2 line up with one another pretty well; they don't have to be rotated, although the maps could be redrawn to provide better superimposition (sometimes the stairs are close enough to guess they're the same, but not exactly).
- Not counting the Orchian Way and the main entry stairs from the basement, I've labeled the stairs on the first level with a letter followed by numbers for which levels they provide access to. Running roughly clockwise, these are A1?, B12, C12, D12, E12, F012, G12, H01, I12, J012, K01, L12. (In other words, stairway J goes from the surface or basement level, to level 1, to level 2: stairway H goes only from level 1 to the surface, stairway G goes only from level 1 to level 2; and stairway A goes from level 1 to some level I haven't figured out yet).
- On the second level some new stairs appear: M02, N02, O02, P2?, Q2?, R2?, S2?, T2?, U2?, V2?, W2?, X2?, and Y2?.
One way of presenting this, I think, will be to make a chart showing each staircase and what levels it goes to. I've thought of naming each one to make them easier to track than just letters. However, it looks like there's a lot of stairs just on the two levels I've started with!
Another way would be to make a map (perhaps isometric) that shows the stairs and levels together. However, I don't want to infringe on the copyright of the maps (esp. since at least the d20 book is commercially available). Maybe I'll draw the cross-section with very little detail on how things connect on each level, just focusing on the stairs and where they go?
- Havard - 02-23-2010
Tavis Wrote:Maybe I'll draw the cross-section with very little detail on how things connect on each level, just focusing on the stairs and where they go?
I would be interested in seeing something like that!
Havard
- Tavis - 02-24-2010
I've started using the image program GIMP to superimpose the levels. Ultimately I'll do a schematic of the corridors and staircases - with enough detail to understand their interconnections, but not enough to replace the commercially available maps - but (as I also posted at the OD&D boards) so far the project isn't ready to leave the underdark.
Even from the first three levels that I've figured out, it's clear that this is the most spatially complex megadungeon I've ever seen; the subareas in Caverns of Thracia often span multiple levels, but each is limited in extent and usually have simply two or three entrances and exits. The levels in Blackmoor are large, massively interconnected, and broken by the cave-ins into small subregions that you often have to go up, then down, then across etc. to enter.
- aldarron - 02-24-2010
Fascinating. I've read through the original a good score of times and the ZGG re release twice, but never actually ran the thing and never realized there were complexities with the stairs. I wonder if Clingman or Quinn have any info about that? One project I plan to get to at some point is comparing The A&E report and Svensons first adventure report with the maps to see what might be seen there.
- Havard - 02-24-2010
Tavis Wrote:I've started using the image program GIMP to superimpose the levels. Ultimately I'll do a schematic of the corridors and staircases - with enough detail to understand their interconnections, but not enough to replace the commercially available maps - but (as I also posted at the OD&D boards) so far the project isn't ready to leave the underdark.
Even from the first three levels that I've figured out, it's clear that this is the most spatially complex megadungeon I've ever seen; the subareas in Caverns of Thracia often span multiple levels, but each is limited in extent and usually have simply two or three entrances and exits. The levels in Blackmoor are large, massively interconnected, and broken by the cave-ins into small subregions that you often have to go up, then down, then across etc. to enter.
Maybe you will have to add more levels in between the existing ones?
Havard
- Tavis - 02-24-2010
For example, I'm pretty sure that two of the stairs going up from the 2nd level go into the pillars in the 1st level, which are actually secret staircases! There's an "Arneson Speaks" in the ZGG release that mentions the pillars as elevators, and otherwise those 2nd level "up" stairs would have no way to emerge.
EDIT: I think the ogres are a clue that the 1976 con report from A&E ventured into the fourth level. One of the staircases on the 1st level could be followed all the way down to the fourth, although you'd have to go into the tunnels on the large-scale fourth-level map to get to the ogres.
- Tavis - 02-25-2010
Well, I've now seen a more spatially complex megadungeon! I'm thinking of doing a similar schematic for Blackmoor Dungeon, although since the levels are more tightly stacked like a layer cake this would look more like a zoom in of the Splendorous Deeps' Upper, Middle, and Lower Commons.
On reflection the FFC map is not as hard to use in play as I first thought. 80% of the staircases I've looked at so far do what you'd expect just by lining up the pages (none of the first six are rotated or more than an inch out of alignment) and guesstimating where it comes out on the level above or below. (A fair number of these are mislabeled as to whether they go up, down, or both, though.)
It's the remaining 20% that go down four levels in a stack; go down two levels, skip one, and re-emerge on a fourth; go up and emerge in a column that isn't marked as a secret door/stair on the map; go up to the surface (I presume) from many levels down; or go down without coming out yet anywhere I can see!
- Havard - 02-25-2010
Tavis Wrote:Well, I've now seen a more spatially complex megadungeon! I'm thinking of doing a similar schematic for Blackmoor Dungeon, although since the levels are more tightly stacked like a layer cake this would look more like a zoom in of the Splendorous Deeps' Upper, Middle, and Lower Commons.
Tavis, I would love to see something like this for DoCB! Interesting thoughts on the whole "pillars as elevators" comment. I remember reading that statement by Arneson, but not really understanding what he meant...
Havard