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+--- Thread: Blackmoor dungeon history (/showthread.php?tid=251)
Blackmoor dungeon history - aldarron - 02-07-2010
The zgg blackmoor dungeon book is a really interesting document because it gives great insight into what Dave thought about his dungeon over the years. But, the history given in it seems a little hokey with half a dozen races building it, including dgragons and giants. Wheras if you read the descriptions of the first few levels it's clear arneson thought of those as typical human constructions. So for lower levels to be older and non human in Origen there must have been other cave entrances. So I would simplify the history to something like levels 10-20 were constructed from sea caves up into the rock and into existing caverns with one or two cliff face entrances big enough for a dragon. At some point a band of dragons come along and drive out the sar aigu. They are killed by Rob I and the castle is built and caves sealed. Various barons add deeper and deeper levevls until the lower levels are rediscovered. what do you think?
Re: Blackmoor dungeon history - Havard - 02-07-2010
Aldarron Wrote:The zgg blackmoor dungeon book is a really interesting document because it gives great insight into what Dave thought about his dungeon over the years. But, the history given in it seems a little hokey with half a dozen races building it, including dgragons and giants. Wheras if you read the descriptions of the first few levels it's clear arneson thought of those as typical human constructions. So for lower levels to be older and non human in Origen there must have been other cave entrances. So I would simplify the history to something like levels 10-20 were constructed from sea caves up into the rock and into existing caverns with one or two cliff face entrances big enough for a dragon. At some point a band of dragons come along and drive out the sar aigu. They are killed by Rob I and the castle is built and caves sealed. Various barons add deeper and deeper levevls until the lower levels are rediscovered. what do you think?
I have been looking at the same thing. Actually, the history section, although confusing, is my favorite part.
My understanding is that for each conquering race, the original inhabitants had to dig deeper and deeper into the rock. This would make the top levels the oldest however, which also might not be what you want.
I like how the Dungeons become a sort of micro-cosm of Blackmoor itself and Blackmoor history though.
Here's how I have the timeline so far:
Thonian Year -3000 Cthonic Age/Sar Aigu
Thonian Year -1000 Age of Dragons
Thonian Year -500 Age of Giants
Thonian Year 1 Bronze Age: Robert of Geneva conquers the Land. Age of Man
Thonian Year 500: "Iron Age" and the Decline of Elves. Thonian Age
Thonian Year 800: Mage Wars: Modern Age. Age of Blackmoor
-Havard
Re: Blackmoor dungeon history - aldarron - 02-07-2010
Havard Wrote:My understanding is that for each conquering race, the original inhabitants had to dig deeper and deeper into the rock. This would make the top levels the oldest however, which also might not be what you want.
I like how the Dungeons become a sort of micro-cosm of Blackmoor itself and Blackmoor history though.
-Havard
Yep, that's what I figure and what the history pretty much says, but its pretty clear that the history section must have been flehsed out by the zgg team without paying much attention to the description of the levels, especially the first ones. They should be the oldest and most Sar aigu in architecture but they are clearly typical castle dungeons in design and function. So 2+2 don't equal 4. That's basically why I was reimagining the history a bit. Plus most of thsoe levels hardly seem usuable by creatures as large as giants and dragons. I cut out the giants altogether just cause it seemed like one too many steps in the story. Anyway just some ideas to play with.
Re: Blackmoor dungeon history - Havard - 02-07-2010
Aldarron Wrote:Yep, that's what I figure and what the history pretty much says, but its pretty clear that the history section must have been flehsed out by the zgg team without paying much attention to the description of the levels, especially the first ones. They should be the oldest and most Sar aigu in architecture but they are clearly typical castle dungeons in design and function. So 2+2 don't equal 4. That's basically why I was reimagining the history a bit.
Yeah it doesnt make all that much sense does it? Unless the upper levels tended to be destroyed/collapse each time a new race is driven deeper under ground, so that it needs to be excavated by a new ruler?
Quote: Plus most of thsoe levels hardly seem usuable by creatures as large as giants and dragons. I cut out the giants altogether just cause it seemed like one too many steps in the story. Anyway just some ideas to play with.
I guess this is what Rafael calls Gygaxian dungeon design. When I first started thinking about this dungeon (before owning the D20 version), my idea was that istead of monsters starting out on top and being driven down, they actually entered from below, either from another plane or from some megadungeon or even a tunnel to some nearby mountains.
Are you removing the Giants from the dungeon as well or just from the history?
Havard
- gsvenson - 02-07-2010
I would agree that the monsters would likely have been driven down by the successive conquests and the upper levels would have been molded to conform to the desires of the most recent conquerers.
Re: Blackmoor dungeon history - aldarron - 02-07-2010
Havard Wrote:Are you removing the Giants from the dungeon as well or just from the history?
Havard
Other than adjusting numbers, or wandering monsters or adding some rooms or passages for a very specific reason, I kinda feel like the Blackmoor dungeon itself should be experinced as Arneson wrote it. So I wouldn't change the room contents or types of monsters found there. The only thing I would do is make changes in accordance with what Arneson wrote to reflect conditons of whatever time period the game was set in.
- Rafael - 02-08-2010
I think the question of a concise dungeon structure stands or falls with THE REASON BM dungeon was built in the first place.
That reason is never given, and I honestly doubt Mr Arneson had an idea about it when he started the game. :wink:
Re: Blackmoor dungeon history - Rafael - 02-08-2010
Havard Wrote:Thonian Year -3000 Cthonic Age/Sar Aigu
Thonian Year -1000 Age of Dragons
Thonian Year -500 Age of Giants
Thonian Year 1 Bronze Age: Robert of Geneva conquers the Land. Age of Man
Thonian Year 500: "Iron Age" and the Decline of Elves. Thonian Age
Thonian Year 800: Mage Wars: Modern Age. Age of Blackmoor
-Havard
Besides, my timeline is better.
Re: Blackmoor dungeon history - Havard - 02-08-2010
Rafael Wrote:Havard Wrote:Thonian Year -3000 Cthonic Age/Sar Aigu
Thonian Year -1000 Age of Dragons
Thonian Year -500 Age of Giants
Thonian Year 1 Bronze Age: Robert of Geneva conquers the Land. Age of Man
Thonian Year 500: "Iron Age" and the Decline of Elves. Thonian Age
Thonian Year 800: Mage Wars: Modern Age. Age of Blackmoor
-Havard
Besides, my timeline is better.
Can the two be reconciled though? The dates I provided were fairly rough, just to get an impression of where the eras from DoCB might fit in. I decided to link the "Blackmoor Era" with the Mage Wars. Also, perhaps more controversial is the statement that Robert I represented a Bronze Age culture, but seeing that Thonia has existed for 1000 years it might not be so strange if some technological development has happened over that millenium as well?
Havard
- Rafael - 02-08-2010
I am not sure.
I would have to know what the timeline was actually supposed to contain.
I can try to work some stuff in, but I doubt it will be a benefit; frankly, I doubt this timeline was more than a generic collection of random fantasy tropes and had nothing to do with Mr Arneson's original ideas.
HOWEVER, I am not Blackmoor's chief canon loremaster. Whatever fits for others, is okay for me. My own take just fits my needs best.