+- The Comeback Inn (https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums)
+-- Forum: The Garnet Room - Blackmoor General Forum (https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=34)
+--- Forum: General Blackmoor Discussions (https://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Thread: Blackmoor in the year 500 (/showthread.php?tid=1902)
Blackmoor in the year 500 - Rafael - 11-17-2014
Hi all,
Let's say... If a certain lazy blackguard wanted to run a game in Blackmoor Town, but not in any of the officially covered eras,
but back in Blackmoor's past, in the year 500 NC, to be specific... What would he do good in looking out for? :wink:
Yours,
Rafe
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - Havard - 11-18-2014
This thread goes into quite a bit of discussion on that subject
To summarize my own thoughts from that thread:
1. No Ducy of Ten (Not even Robinsport, Dacoit etc)
2. Duchy of the Peaks is fairly young (founded ca Year 500)
3. Temple of the Id is still active (Destroyed in Year 500)
4. No Dwarven Settlements. Dwarves have just arrived and Uberstar Khazakhum is looking for a place to found his realm. The Bovo Popuo still inhabit the Crystal Peaks and other mountains.
5. Before the Deluge. Sinking lands have not yet begun to sink. North Sea not yet connected to Black Sea. (see this map)
6. Elves are still one race. (Split ca year 500)
7. Huge Forest, known as the Heartforest covers large portions of the land. (Per Jeff Quinn)
8. Darker creatures, including demons are much more commonplace.
9. Skandaharians to the North will be here already at this time, but are perhaps not yet a developed raider culture?
10. Vestfold, Maus and Blackmoor are already present, but most other settlements are still villages at best. Populations are small.
11. Orcs and Goblins do not yet exist. Beastmen are created in the year 500 as response to destruction of the temple of Id (Fan theory)
10. No Afridhi
12. Egg of Coot has not yet risen.
13. No Wizards Cabal. Mage Wars have not yet occurred. Human mages are likely rare, except for the primitive kinds (Wokans, Sorcerers)
14. Valemen more commonplace. Not yet driven to the west (fan speculation)
15. Blackmoor and the northern settlements are loyal outposts of the Thonian Empire
16. Peshwah are still around, many live as raiders.
17. No Loch Gloomen, Fel, Dukane, South Pim, Newgate, Kennydale, Cloudtop, Dragonia, Booh, Williamsfort, Bosero's Tower, Fairfield Abby, Boggy Bottom
Overall it is an interesting subject, although most timelines make the year 500 to be a transition year so it would be easier to describe Blackmoor before or after that year. Campaigns Set before the destruction of the Temple of Id will probably likely end up dealing with that enemy. Campaigns set immediately after the destruction if Id could be interesting too as it would be a time of unheaval dealing with the aftermath of that war, the split between the elf clans, the growing division between Elves and Men and the arrival of dwarves and halflings.
Havard
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - Rafael - 11-18-2014
Woof! Nice list, my friend! Thank you!
I think it wouldn't take much effort to make this a playable setting, even with the tools that we already we have (i. e. your antediluvian map, etc.).
For a BM Town campaign, I'd probably focus on the Id cult, and on the relative closeness to the Elven realm. (In "Tales from the Old Land", I think I kind of hinted at how the relationship could have looked.)
I think perhaps the Runequest "King of Dragon Pass" storyline wouldn't be a bad blueprint for a Northern campaign, there.
As in, for example, the Afridhi themselves might not be there, but perhaps some first traces of them...
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - Havard - 11-18-2014
Raphael Pinthus Wrote:Woof! Nice list, my friend! Thank you!
I think it wouldn't take much effort to make this a playable setting, even with the tools that we already we have (i. e. your antediluvian map, etc.).
Yep. This may also inspire me to revise and improve that map given the feedback I got in that thread. Antediluvian is a cool word btw
Quote:For a BM Town campaign, I'd probably focus on the Id cult, and on the relative closeness to the Elven realm. (In "Tales from the Old Land", I think I kind of hinted at how the relationship could have looked.)
Cool, so pre destruction of Id then?
Yes, the relationship between elves and Men seems like a likely theme for such a campaign.
Quote:As in, for example, the Afridhi themselves might not be there, but perhaps some first traces of them...
Certainly. I believe I have hinted at some older darkness attacking the Vales in this era in my Vales Campaign... :twisted:
Then again, there are many other evils to pick from in this time. The Temple of Id should be the most obvious candidate as villains especially if the campaign is set prior to the destruction of that Order. Even after the Temple is destroyed, the cultists could be scattered and attempting to rebuild their organization. An entire campaign could be built around that.
Another note:
In my Rulers of Blackmor thread, I have suggested the Dog Duke (see FFC) as one of the rulers around the year 500. I have a writeup of him and his adventures here. This also sheds some light on how I see the elf human relationship of the era.
-Havard
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - Rafael - 11-18-2014
Havard Wrote:Cool, so pre destruction of Id then?
If I would do it, likely yes. Thing is, the Id cult is perhaps the only tangible and recognizable item from modern Blackmoor that one could include in the elder setting without any changes by the book. (I think this is what you call a "red ribbon".)
Quote:In my Rulers of Blackmor thread, I have suggested the Dog Duke (see FFC) as one of the rulers around the year 500. I have a writeup of him and his adventures here. This also sheds some light on how I see the elf human relationship of the era.
Yeah, your work on the era was one of the reasons why I think this could be something to pursue.
I, personally, would only focus on BM town, for the moment, and add or remove other lore as needed.
For example, the Dog Duke/Uhlmar mythology could be represented in different ways.
- Perhaps, there's an Elven enclave in the city? Perhaps the reason why BM Town is still a village by 990 is that the Elven enclave was really a tree town that later later burned away?
The Id Cult/Dog Duke stories are reasonably comparable to the Elder Eye/Thrommel storyline from "Temple of the Elemental Evil", by the way.
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - Havard - 11-18-2014
Raphael Pinthus Wrote:Havard Wrote:Yep. This may also inspire me to revise and improve that map given the feedback I got in that thread. Antediluvian is a cool word btw
Quote:Cool, so pre destruction of Id then?
If I would do it, likely yes. Thing is, the Id cult is perhaps the only tangible and recognizable item from modern Blackmoor that one could include in the elder setting without any changes by the book. (I think this is what you call a "red ribbon".)
I'm not sure it is the only thing, but the destruction of that temple is the key event of the year 500 for sure.
Quote:Quote:In my Rulers of Blackmor thread, I have suggested the Dog Duke (see FFC) as one of the rulers around the year 500. I have a writeup of him and his adventures here. This also sheds some light on how I see the elf human relationship of the era.
Yeah, your work on the era was one of the reasons why I think this could be something to pursue.
I, personally, would only focus on BM town, for the moment, and add or remove other lore as needed.
For example, the Dog Duke/Uhlmar mythology could be represented in different ways.
Thanks! For an actual game, it is necessary to adapt things to the need of the game so feel free
These stories that I have come up with are really my attempts to piece together clues from the FFC and d20 Blackmoor Sourcebook to answer the following questions:
1) How was the Temple of Id destroyed 500 years ago? (Some details are hinted at)
2) What the split between the elves?
3) What caused Menander's Grandfather to curse his daughter and those that went with her (ie the Westryn)
4) Who was the Dog Duke?
5) Who was the Wizard who was thrown into the Pit for betraying Blackmoor?
6) How does all this fit into the eras described in DoCBM and the general Blackmoor Timeline?
I also wanted to describe the shifting relations between elves and humans. During Uhlmar's younger days, I see him as curious and friendly towards the humans in the time when Robert I founds Blackmoor. At the same time, it is the Old Uhlmar who then causes the end of this alliance, something that isn't really restored untill Menander's father helps drive the Egg of Coot out of Blackmoor during the FFC era.
Quote:- Perhaps, there's an Elven enclave in the city? Perhaps the reason why BM Town is still a village by 990 is that the Elven enclave was really a tree town that later later burned away?
An Elven enclave sounds logical. Prior to the War Against the Id, elves may have been very close to the Thonians.
I think there are many other reasons why Blackmoor remained a small settlement for so long though. Mainly it would have to do with the fact that up to the Mage Wars the North was really seen as an uninteresting distant part of the Empire. Likely, the lands controlled by the Iron Duke in the modern setting had not even been developed much in the year 500.
Quote:The Id Cult/Dog Duke stories are reasonably comparable to the Elder Eye/Thrommel storyline from "Temple of the Elemental Evil", by the way.
Interesting. My Greyhawk lore is quite limited. What are the similarities?
***
I actually think this setting would be extremely interesting. I know that some would be reluctant to accept many of the implication of what I write above such as no Orcs or Goblinoids, few Dwarves, Mages etc, but I actually think this would be a great chance to explore the differences such a setting could present.
For instance I see the Cult of Id as much more than a handful of insane Lovecraftian cultists. They posed a real threat to the combined Blackmoor/Elven forces afterall. I see them controlling all kinds of dark creatures including half-demon cavemen, Garls, Nightmare Creatures (Abominations) and other creatures. In addition to the obligatory Displacer Beasts of course.
Similarly the elven realms would be home to all kinds of fey and sylvan creatures.
-Havard
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - Rafael - 11-19-2014
(Got to run, more later.)
Short version of my answer is: Check the old ToEE book, if you can. Just from the first few pages, you might see how things fit into place pretty nicely.
I have always thought about using Williamsfort as Hommlet, but, with a few tweaks, it could even work as Blackmoor, or one of the Watchtowers on the Old Land coast.
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - RobJN - 11-19-2014
If I remember my reading from the Campaign Setting book, the Westryn are the more "woods-y" of the elves, rather than the more cosmopolitan Cumasti. Could the split between the two be something along the lines of law-chaos?
The Cumasti, who seem to want to mingle, are seen as losing something of their "true" nature due to the (real or perceived) influence of their interactions with Men and their towns/cities/farming. In a sense, they are becoming ever so slightly more Lawful (ordered, organized, structured), whereas the Westryn want to go back to their more carefree/chaotic/individualistic roots.
The frictions between the two factions could have started before the beginnings of the campaign against the forces of the Temple/cult of Id: the half that would become the Cumasti wanted to join forces with Men and quash the threat, whereas the Westryn felt that isolation and seclusion were the answer: let Men fight their own battles, and not drag the elves into it.
Just some thoughts....
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - Havard - 11-19-2014
RobJN Wrote:If I remember my reading from the Campaign Setting book, the Westryn are the more "woods-y" of the elves, rather than the more cosmopolitan Cumasti. Could the split between the two be something along the lines of law-chaos?
The Cumasti, who seem to want to mingle, are seen as losing something of their "true" nature due to the (real or perceived) influence of their interactions with Men and their towns/cities/farming. In a sense, they are becoming ever so slightly more Lawful (ordered, organized, structured), whereas the Westryn want to go back to their more carefree/chaotic/individualistic roots.
The frictions between the two factions could have started before the beginnings of the campaign against the forces of the Temple/cult of Id: the half that would become the Cumasti wanted to join forces with Men and quash the threat, whereas the Westryn felt that isolation and seclusion were the answer: let Men fight their own battles, and not drag the elves into it.
Just some thoughts....
My impression is that the Cumasti are close to High Elves and Westryn seem like a mix of Wood Elves and Wild Elves. I generally think your idea of the split between the two groups building up over time with the War against the Id being an event that causes the whole thing to blow up.
I don't know if the war with the Id would be seen as an affair between humans only. Humans only have a limited presence in the North at this time and the Temple of Id would be a threat to the elves just as much as the Thonians. OTOH there is a difference between that and actively working in an alliance with the humans against the Temple though. I am sure that there could be people among the Westryn who were mumbling about how cozy their king (Uhlmar IMC) was with the humans before the war, but perhaps they didnt have a leader untill the Black Queen (the king's daughter) goes against him over the percieved human betrayal?
I have marked the Fall of Id as the event that marks the End of the Age of Elves (from Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor), so going by that assumption, the event would have had to had dramatic consequences for the elves.
Your attention to the internal rivalries within the elves before the Battle would allow for a more complex elven society in a pre-Id campaign so that would be a good thing. We might even use the subraces, though perhaps downgrade the Westryn a bit. Perhaps they would be more like regular Woodelves at this point.
-Havard
Re: Blackmoor in the year 500 - Rafael - 11-20-2014
Travelling these days, so got to be short: My problem with the several official takes on Blackmoorian "founding" mythology is that they are not very coherent, and that, apparently, people tried to compress things into the relatively small timeframe of a thousand years. That leaves very, very little time for mystery, IMO.
Now, mellowed down CONSIDERABLY, this could still work for a campaign that I would like: For example, what about making the Id Gem sort of a stand-in Silmaril? - One could work with that, at least tentatively.
IF I WAS TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT AS A GAME, I would try to work with Chris Aylott's approach to Elven and Human neighborhoods ("humans are hairless monkeys") once more, and the main narrative would be about humans discovering a way (literally, "cold steel") to upset that relation of power. The other main aspect of the game, I would probably try to handle based on what we know from Zimriel (once again, my Blackmoor is 50% inspired in his notes):
Quote:Note that the Temple of Id is no churchland, but is actually a cursed and ancient place of terror. Extensive caverns contain prisons, chapels, and monster dens. Above-ground structure: courtyard with small amphitheatre, “several undead superheroes”, great orange jewel on black pedestal. This Jewel is very probably the legendary Jewel of the Sun, which in 996 proved very effective against undead and magical darkness.
Stealing this jewel results in the “Id Monster” chasing the thief. Only the thief can see the monster. The Monster will eat the Jewel (and thief), at which point the monster and jewel return to the Temple, and the thief magically reappears, naked, under the Blackmoor “Troll Bridge” in Blackmoor’s sewage runoff. The Jewel was still there as of 1000.
So, some basic considerations:
Trolls could be a race to tool with, in the larger scale of things. No greenskins, but trolls. Especially interesting in combination with Elves.
Also, what if the Id Gem is the corrupted "Jewel of the Sun"? Perhaps it contains another powerful soul, similar to the Evershard, but, well, smaller? What if it's really the "Id" of something powerful?
My bet would go, just based on the stuff we've been toying with, on the oldest Elves. Now, since BM has only a tradition that stretches back a thousand years, that pretty boring, but if we borrow from WL lore, like I did for the LFC, then we quickly get to Dragon Kings and Macrabs, and, in short, stuff to toy with.
Will be off for a few days. Feel free to use these ideas as you like.