Rafe -- in general I agree with you that the company should meet the needs of the consumer and not the other way around, but this case is different becasue they are trying to attract two totally different consumer demographics that really don't overlap.

You've got old school gamers who want minimalistic rules and thin B&W rulebooks. You've got new school gamers who want tons of options and thick glossy rulebooks. (Exaggerated somewhat for effect.) Not a lot of overlap.

My thinking, therefore, is that for 5E to work both sides will have to change their thinking a little. Old timers will have to accept more gloss and flash-bang while new timers will have to accept more tradition and simplicity. If only one side compromises, or worse if neither side compromises, 5E is doomed.

I think both of you are right, but only in a very limited environment.

I think it's wrong to assume that there is a transgression between the D&D editions.

Demand for games is not so much dictated by "open-mindedness", as by need.

If one system works well for one's purposes, why switch?



And, then, why switch to D&D 3e, 4e, 5e?

3e books were interesting because of the OGL.

But 4e books? The already flawed ruleset from 3e was made even worse (think of the famous "Mach 3" elves, as the textbook example),
and the overall quality of the supplemental products, and product support in general wasn't great.



So, either as a newbie and as a seasoned oldschooler, why should I pick 4e, or, for that matter,
any game that is neither different nor better than other, existing products?

The real issue, as I see it, is that, since around mid-3e, after the release of, I think, "Mysteries of the Moon Sea",
Wizbro has simply put out bad products.

I don't know how many of you really check new RPG publications, but, just for example,
one of the biggest strengths of the Paizo books is that they are brilliantly edited.

Or, the new Dark Heresy books: Good editing, good art, very good writing, very condensed and very usable content.

Take against that any book Wizbro has put out recently. Like "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft", where the final chapter was missing from the printed book.

And, the prize!

The usual D&D starter set, which contains of three rulebooks, two setting books, and possibly one adventure module.

That's between 130 $ and 180 $ here that we are talking to have everything we need to play on a most basic level.


Show me one person under 30 years of age that can spare such a sum for a board game that might not even be that great
compared to others.

In comparison, the dreadful "The One Ring" game cost me 50 €, all in all, and I have everything I need to play.

What is a student, or a parent for his kid, more likely to pick, would you say? :)



Wooohooo, that got longer than I thought.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dungeon ... 0786962464

3e core books are rereleased, as were the 1e before.

That, and Monte Cook has left Wizbro again, can't find the link right now.



...And suddenly, nobody gave a crap about 5e any more.

D&D dying a slow death has just been, uuh, sped up.